February 23rd, 2010

127 views

There are two things.
The world and the world as we perceive it. Often, our perception will simply be false or incomplete.
The world doesnt change because of our perceptions and carries on quite happily no matter wtf anyone thinks.

To consider a waterfall beautiful does not give it special properties, nor does your opinion of it stay after you have left. To think certain water is holy doesn't imbue it with anything it doesn't already have any such things aren't registered in any sectrum.

The age old question of "if a tree falls in the woods and theres no one there to hear it, does it still make a sound?" is a stupid and flawed one as it assumes that if there is not people, then something has not happened. No. The atoms around it will still disperse in a regular and 'organised' fashion same as it would if someone WERE there to hear it. I could cut out my eyes with that scalpel but just because I can't see you doesn't mean you aren't there or that you're invisible.

Give into the fact that you and everyone you know are simply another organism in this universe and although we've advanced further, made prettier things and can definately have more of an impact than any other animal, that this is all we are.
We are an animal, not a gods creations thats somehow special because we're slightly smarter (and I do mean slightly) and for no particular reason 'favoured' by this god to either worship it and get eternal bliss or be damned to entire hellfire, compared to our other biologically different neighbours who will seemingly just die and go no where. Because why? Does god not favour dogs? Do pigs somehow deserve oblivion? Poor wasps for having a life literally that will end in nothing because a god they dont know about created them for us and us alone. What makes us better or worse exactly?

We aren't more evolved, we're simply differently evolved.

I'm tired of this pathetic arguement insisting that we are infact superior or indeed even special, when all we are is a bunch of cells that are slightly different to that of a virus or bear.

Accept that you're an animal, because there is nothing wrong with it what so ever. Get off the proverbial high horse and admit you and I are monkeys, or primates, (yes literally) that simply have more rules, better clothes, better inventions and prefer to speak a different way, have less hair, walk taller and try to adhear to civilisation once in a while.
I personally would probably prefer the company of cats to most humans, and if they could speak english, they'd win.

This is not an opinion. This is FACT and you will fucking accept it if I have to start shoving fossils down your god-fearing throats. We have the proof. We have the indisputable evidence and you are just going to have to face it.
You have been proven wrong at every turn and I'm tired of fighting against those simply unwilling to see reason.

It's never been a matter of faith. I have faith my toaster wont burn my bread. I have faith my toilet will flush. I have faith the earth will complete another rotation and the day will become night. And every time they do, it's provable in every sense.

Believe in some invisible force that you nor anyone else can prove, describe, calculate or in ANY way if you really really have such an ego that some invisible giant force considers you something it should pay attention to, but I am fine simply being a man-monkey. A person that talks to other people and tries to help them feel better and deal with real life with kind words, real actions and proper solutions to problems and not ignoring it and pretending an invisible force will ever do it for me or them.

I hate your bigotted, and judgemental unprovable sky person with all my being and I hate you more for thinking you need it to have a moral compass, a reason for being or a reason to ever just act like someone with a fucking conscience.
You don't need one, and you've never needed one. Now grow up, get rid of that security blanket you tell all your troubles, the pastor that fills your head that filles your head with comforting lies, grow a fucking pair and get some real friends and an education to boot.
Spend your sunday at the fucking soup kitchen instead of in church and if you do already, then why did you need church in the first place aside from to talk to people who believe in the same imaginary person you do. Go help your community or at least your friends. Go make something wonderous, be it for science, for art, or even cooking! If you have a good life, pat you and whoever helped on the back. Don't pretend your non-corporial friend did it.

Unless you're a buddhist. Then we can be friends. Because that's just a belief system, not a religion.
  • Cariad

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    i do think that some of this may be a bit harsh, but hey its your view.. but when you're saying that of religious people you only like buddhists (is what i got from it) then thats a bit harsh? chances are you'll have met the worst of the religious people, majority i know arent bad people.. in the way that they shove stuff down people throats, and try and make others believe in what they do? :/ i may have mis-read what you said though..?

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Crispy

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    Very well argued! I don't hate religion as such....I think spirituality is good, however organised religion can cause wayyyyy to many problems than it solves....

    I think some people use the idea of a God as an excuse...somewhere to pass the buck, rather than take on the responsibility of life. That's where organised religion can be perverted and used as an excuse to do, or not do, certain things not entirely beneficial to humanity. That's why I like Buddhism, it places the buck on you, the individual, the one of many, rather than on a deity. :)

    February 23rd, 2010

  • rastrosus

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    So... without getting into the finer points of your broader message (since I generally agree with most of it!), are you suggesting that one can't identify some "specialness" (what the Hindus would call 'prahna') of personhood, perhaps for some broader definition of "person" that includes chimpanzees, gorillas, and selected marine mammals?

    February 23rd, 2010

  • ODDBALL

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    I read that thinking "is he alright, what tipped him over the edge into rage?". Now I am asking it. <3

    People can be aggrevating, putting beliefs above people but our wishes aren't going to do much good either - wishing that people will not believe in a deity will not make that happen. Religion, right or wrong, has the ultimate get-out clause that it concerns matters outside of human measurement, so the matter will not be resolved until we progress further and look to new things. Even then people will feel the need to believe in something that cannot be defined, even if it is who you are - which can still be changed by a flickering of neurons, a traumatic event and so on.

    Children don't live with a veil over their eyes, protecting them from the world, it is adults. We build up practices and beliefs to counter our own insecurities as we are forced to take responsibilty for our own lives. This also means that people, however well intentioned, won't let go of issues that they find insulting/wrong - they cannot accept that people should not think like them. Please remember that the world is made up of different thoughts, feelings and needs; some people *do* need to feel that they are being kept an eye on. I personally do not believe in anything spiritual or otherwise, but I still like the comfort of certain ideas. Think about the Warhammer pieces that you create/books you read - going into this fantasy world gives you a certain pleasure, a a different set of rules to life and a way of incrementally reinforcing/expressing yourself.

    Be happy that you are a man-monkey that can enjoy literature, compassion and entertainment above that of other species; don't worry about other people so much. That is really what it boils down to here, you want to help others see the 'truth' so that you can help them. It is a nice idea but not your place to tell them how to live their lives, just to offer your opinion. It sucks, I know, but plug away with those closest to you.

    Again, <3.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • crimsong19

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    Wow ...
    What if I'm a lapsed reform Jew?

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Jeryes

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    I love you, Ben.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • GnarlyPants

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    I completely agree with you.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Azrepheal

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    And the 'awesomeness of the day' award goes to...

    February 23rd, 2010

  • lilylilylily

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    you're so cool :L

    February 23rd, 2010

  • GdwnsnHo

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    This is so incredibly true, and I have to agree with it now, because, well, otherwise I'd feel like a twit.

    Is chivalry in the same category as buddism in your opinion? I am under the impression that it is, because its a german philosophy of behaviour, that happens to be v.christian in nature, however, some disagree and claim its a part of christianity (false it may be, but its your own association I suppose that makes it what it is).

    February 23rd, 2010

  • absit_invidia

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    Well...
    I've already discussed some thing similar in a blurb of mine a while back, basically about how people thought they were superior to animals because we've developed a rational method of thinking... a "conscience" if you must, and thus, unlike animals, we don't depend on the basic instinctive reaction to take us through the day.
    At the end of the day, we all want to survive. Dog, cat, pig, monkey, man. And whether we do it in a refined manner on a dining table, or while prowling around looking for half-decayed scraps of meat, the purpose is the same.
    So, the belief that we are in any way better than animals is bizarre. Agreed. We’ve just sort of sugar coated the animal-like behaviour. At least animals are honest, and simple

    Now… as for the first bit. Goethe had said the “beauty is the manifestation of natural laws” (or something like that). That’s obviously trash, because laws imply something hard and fast and people don’t find beauty in the same things. Difference in perception is the cause. And yes, our perception will NOT change the basic make or structure of say, a waterfall, but it WILL give it some characteristic, or special quality, that is unique to each individual. And that’s what matters right…? I mean, things would be painfully bland if the world was devoid of perception.

    As for faith… you’re right. It’s just a scapegoat. People need some sort of comfort when down. A LOT easier than getting off your ass and DOING something. My sociology textbook said the the function of religion was to 1. bring people together, and 2. set up a moral code. Now, the first is crazy, because religion has caused feuds, from the crusades, to modern terrorism. The second is crazier, because religious moral codes simple lead to closed mindedness, and stunted development. “God” is a lot easier to believe in, than admitting that the world is a colossal fuck up. And well, if this god DOES exists… he’s an awful sadist. Enlightenment will not come with selfless devotion to some airy concept… it’ll come if you OPEN you eyes, unfold your hands, and LOOK around you.

    So, yeah.
    Sorry for the essay. :/

    February 23rd, 2010

  • blueskies

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    Once again an @oddball has the answer!

    February 23rd, 2010

  • ODDBALL

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    @blueskies Um, I'm quite dense, was that sarcastic? I know that I go on a bit so quite possibly... To be honest I just hope that he is doing okay.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Dario_oh

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    A tad to aggressive for my taste, but I agree with you on most of this.

    I don't believe in god, i'm one of those people who has to have an answer to everything and it has to be a real proven and tested answer.
    I do believe in evolution and that we are just animals, but we didn't just one day come into existence for no apparent reason. Some say that the big bang theory is what made existence, others say that how did the big bang happen? God made it happen. And I say if god made the big bang happen then who made god? I've been in so many arguements about this and I always get the same answer "we don't know who made god because he doesn't want us to know" I reply "why doesn't he want us to know? Because WE (humans) created him. He is just a figment of our imagination, nothing more"

    what I don't agree with you is where you want to force someone to believe what you believe in. I think everyone should do what makes them happy, and to some people having something to believe in does make them happy. It gives them purpose in life and I don't think anyone should ever try to take that away from them.
    I don't know if you did try to force someone to believe what you do, but that's just the way it came off to me.

    Many people try to figure out the reason for existance, but I don't think we'll ever know how or why it really happened. People waste their lifes trying to, but that's what they want to do, so i say let them.

    Personally i think that lifes too short to try and find an answer to something that simply doesn't have an answer. Again, I think that people should do what makes them happy, and to some being religious does indeed make them happy.

    Me, I try to live my life as best I can. I know right from wrong and I life my life by my guidelines.
    I'm kind to others, I smile for the hell of it I don't take many things serious, but the things I do I will protect until the end of me, I do try to make others happy, until that impedes with my happiness, and no i don't just worry about my happiness because their are some people I will do anything for even if it costs me my life.

    So pretty much I don't care about religion or the reason why we (humans) are the way we are, I'm gonna live my life how I want to and not anyone not anything will tell me how I should.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    I would like you all (if you have 7minutes 49 seconds to spare) to watch this video please. It helps a section of my arguement and I quite frankly didn't want to copy it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNau_Cdll3w

    @Cariad Buddhists aren't religious. That was infact the last sentence. There is a difference.
    But I don't think I really made it entirely clear... There are religious people I've met and they've been great. They help the poor and needy and are alround nice people, which is thats fine. But them pretending that they do this for god, or that god has infact done anything for them (and then of course denying the bad) is pointless. Do it for society. Do it for your own moral wellbeing. Do it because it makes you feel better, I dont care, just
    I read a while back, someone thanking god for thinking that they can deal with all the mountains of shit they're going through, and all I could think of was an abused child thanking thier abuser.
    @Crispy That's why I like it also. If I wanted to be spiritual, I'd definately choose buddhism.
    Theres the simple fact also of Occams Razor. Why did all this NEED a creator? Who created the creator exactly? Every religion falls flat under any form of scrutiny and "god just did this" is not an answer. If you don't know the answer to something, don't pretend you do, just leave it to science who at least will constantly check itself for mistakes to make sure it IS correct and accurate.
    @Npja I think what I was really trying to get at is, either we're all special, or none of us are. You especially should watch the video at the top please :)
    Souls have no... laws. They dont seem to have any purpose what so ever, which is weird because its that that most people think thats what makes them special.
    @ODDBALL Your... delicacy amuses me. Don't worry, I'm not gunna take offence to anything you say anyway, so you really don't have to make sure just in case. I wasn't pissed at any one person, I was just annoyed in general...
    You're right and wrong. Kids do have veil over their eyes, its just usually a different one. Kids will believe anything because they're mostly niave and uneducated (not their choice, mind), but adults simply try to find comforts in everything because they quickly realise that just because they PERCIEVED the world as a nice, bright place, that it really isn't.
    I admit that people can have their own opinions, but these CANNOT win against facts. And by facts, I mean any facts.
    Not stories, not vague theorys, things with real definable proof and evidence.

    That is why I am tired of this nonsense. I can believe there're fucking fairies in my room, but the fact that I, nor anyone can see them, nor any form of tool or anything EVER will find them proves they dont fucking exist and thus I AM disputably wrong!
    Warhammer only gives me a certain pleasure to escape reality for a while, and enjoy something that someone put dedication and time into, whether it be a model or book. I gain no comfort from it.
    @Crimsong19 What is the difference between a reform Jew and the normal kind? Or did you miss an 'ed' by accident?
    I actually respect the Jews a bit more simply because of all the shit they got and get as a culture, but I still think your god and rituals as are quite pointless as any other.
    @Jeryes Tis good to know
    @GnarlyPants Good man
    @Azrepheal I get an award?! ... Should I thank God? xD
    @Lilylilylily I'm not really. Just a bit pissed off.
    @GdwnsnHo "Chivalry is a term related to the medieval institution of knighthood. It is usually associated with ideals of knightly virtues, honor and courtly love. The word is derived from the French word chevalier, indicating one who rides a horse (Fr. cheval)."
    So yes, chivalry is perfectly fine.
    @Tara_Isha Animals often act in the same ways we do. The video at the top explains it perfectly.
    And I'm fine with us being all complex and stuff, I'm not saying just because we're animals we should tear down all we're done. We've made what we've made because we CAN make it. Same as a beaver makes a dam or a bee makes a hive.
    It doesn't matter if it would be. It doesn't give it any properties. I see pretty much everything has bland and boring, because once the childish glee is gone from something, there is just the facts.
    Well no, your textbook has a point, but its not really explained it. It brings people together by getting everyone to believe the same thing (one way or another) and people then assume that because they believe that thing, that they have something in common with one another. Like a community. The crusades were against OTHER religions :P
    But the last part is accurate. Well done pet.
    @Blueskies He did well.
    @Dario_oh Yes I do agree. I don't know how we started, nor do I pretend to. I leave that to people with a shitton a degrees :P
    While I do agree that stopping someone feeling happy is pretty mean, when what you believe is the opposite of the facts, then they're simply delusional.
    It's not right to force anyone, I realise, but those that still talk to this magical sockpuppet of theirs shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the proverbial wheels of society or politics.

    Tbh, why do we NEED a reason to exist. We exist. It's happened. Do something with it :P

    The reason I think I've been quite so... agreesive this time is because this blind and total acceptance of peoples ignorance has simply been ignored and I cannot any longer sit by and tolerate this bullshit.
    We are the same with how we live our lives. People just need to stop pretending.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • rastrosus

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    @diceman I enjoy The Amazing Atheist a lot... but that isn't to say that this isn't a huge issue I wrestle with a lot in my own atheism: Call it what you will... soul, prana, qi/chi, "The Force," "magic smoke" -- the idea that there is, for *some* definition of intelligent life something beyond just life and intelligence going on.

    Philosophy is hard. ;)

    February 23rd, 2010

  • ODDBALL

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    I watched the video and liked the level of thought put into it, but all I could think was "eewww, that dog's licking his mouth". :/ I guess that I am not that deep...

    February 23rd, 2010

  • GnarlyPants

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    I try my best.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • crimsong19

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    Difference in adherence to the Torah and all.
    Conservative- Long co-ed services.
    Reform- Short co-ed services.
    Orthodox- Long split services.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Dario_oh

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    But alas, this is the world we live in.
    We can't change the people in it, nor would I want to.

    All I want is to be happy, respected and loved.
    Happy with my life, respected by the people who matter to me and loved for who I am and by those i love.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Npja Well that just insists that everything is all linked together, which I dont really have a problem with as we all technically come from the one huge thing (the universe). But that there is life beyond this? Thats just your fear of death. Ignore it.
    @ODDBALL Aha, dont worry, I thought that too. Just pay attention to the words :P Watch it a few times.
    @GnarlyPants Tis a good best.
    @Crimsong19 Hmm, this wasnt known to me. Fair enough.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Dario_oh Thats all I want too. I cant really speak for anyone else though...

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Cariad

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    @diceman - yeah sorry, i put buddhists in that group because its taught as part if religious studies at schools. i dont really understand whats wrong with people helping others, you said "pretending that they do this for god" but why would they have to pretend? perhaps they are doing it for their deity? (not sure if thats spelt right) I know that every act has a section of selfishness behind it, but thats due to human nature. we learnt about Kant's ethics - he believed in duty for duty's sake - that you should do an act to help, for example gjving food to someone starving, because they need food, not because it makes you look good, or gives you good karma etc.  however, if things happen as a result of it - you get good karma for example - then you are still in the right. so if they did it to help, then i disagree with you - if they did it for duty's sake, then i agree with you. 
    the last bit about thanking god for shit happening - i've never thanked god for giving me shit stuff in my life, and probay never will! but when its taken away is when myself, and people i know would thank him :).
    From reading things you've said, i think some of the stuff we've done in ethics/philosophy would be interesting to you, like the eyrthro ( not spelt right!!) dilemma, and other things :)   

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Dario_oh

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    Yeah..

    But what ever, like my friend says "let every do what the want with their own asshole"

    February 23rd, 2010

  • blueskies

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    @oddball haha, no - I thought you nailed it. Last paragraph especially.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Dario_oh

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    Everyone*

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Cariad My point IS to go about things with Kant's ethics. Most of us know what is infact right and what we SHOULD do, but simply do nothing.
    Fear of retribution from an eternal god is just being a kissass (when doing good things) like a suck up personal assistant. They dont WANT to do it, but they do it so they get the good stuff at the end and they only do what they HAVE to.
    Although I should add that just doing something nice because it makes you feel better is fine by me. I mean, if you do good, its not like you should feel bad for improving someones life...

    To thank god for getting rid of shit that IT must have put there in the first place is also utterly pointless. Thats like someone purposely putting a large rock on my leg and then moving it off. Yeah, good you removed the rock but you DID put it there first!
    I know a lot on ethics and philosophy. Not everything. I dont know else there is to learn annoyingly...

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Cariad

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    ah, i did wonder, it seemed to relate lol.
    with what you say about the rock - wouldnt you be grateful that it was no longer on your leg, that it had been removed - despite the person who took it off?

    and philosophy - we did some stuff about the ontological argument and mr plantingas view and some other dude i cant remember - if you havent read abouut it already, i think the arguments against it, if not the whole thing itself, might intrest you :)
    its true that you'd not be happy that they put it on, but instead of leaving it on their for you to try and move by yourself, they helped you out of a tricky situation?
    i do see your point though. but

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Cariad

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    oh, really sorry about the order of the last comment, im on my ipod internet, apologies
    the paragraph before its true... should be at the end :)
    and the bit at the "but" should be
    but everyone has their beliefs about things.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Cariad But that person PUT the rock there!
    I'd be glad the rock is gone, but I wouldnt be thankful to THEM because bloody well put it there! It's their fault to begin with. It's not help because all their doing is rectifying their own mistake. If someone else helped? I'd thank them. If the rock was on me for another reason, I'd thank them. But its not.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • metaphoricxeyes

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    Honestly, you probably pulled everything that I have started to believe within the past few months right out of my mouth. According to my mom, I was baptized as a Baptist. But that, of course, didn't last long. I was only, like... Four. How was I supposed to know then what was real and what was not or what was right and what was wrong? Because when I was eight, I was put into a different religion.

    I'm not all too comfortable about saying what I want to say in a comment mainly for the mere fact that some people are still following me despite my efforts of continuously blocking them, even though my DB isn't private and they can STILL see things that I say, but these people could take things that I say and repeat them to my dad.

    I'm a coward in that sense. About people. Though my beliefs in things have changed immensely over the past four/five months because I was made to open my eyes and see what all religions are as they are, not as they say.

    The most that I will say is that I'm not involving myself with it all anymore. I'm quite tired of being told that if I do ONE thing that seems so bad, that my life will be in danger in the long run and that I will be punished in such a way that would be far worse than what my parents could ever do. That I do not understand. If God is so loving and loves us all as we are, why would we be punished for small mistakes? I could understand bigger ones.

    We're imperfect. That's all I have to say about it. I mean, we do know the difference between right and wrong, but we still make mistakes. I've made a few and because of them and because of religions I've been in, I was scared to death that I would be punished in a way that I could and couldn't imagine. It's all driven by fear, really. People tell you these things and it's like telling someone a ghost story. Personally, if someone tells me a ghost story that is as big and has SO much detail in it as to what people say about religion, then, hell yeah, I'm scared. That is what I think it IS all based off of.

    Not a fear of displeasing someone we love, but a fear of displeasing someone of great power who could make us burn in hell. Which is quite scary, to some people. Quite frankly, I don't really care anymore.

    Sorry. I kind of rambled off. Your blurb kind of made me think more. ^-^

    But all in all, I am an animal. It almost makes me want to rant off about exactly why I'm a vegetarian, but I won't. Because it doesn't have anything to do with this topic, really.

    But I do agree, really.... we are only different from an animal due to the fact that we are differently evolved. We are still the same as an animal. I agree completely.

    But that's all I'll say now. I don't really have anything else to say. I think I lost my train of focus when I got up to turn my lamp off. Otherwise this comment would probably have been even longer. xD

    February 23rd, 2010

  • metaphoricxeyes

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    WHOA. My comment was long.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Cariad

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    yes, i get that, but what about if it was partially your fault you had the rock put on you? i dunno, my brains not making a lot of sense right now, too tired. but what im saying is that from a christian perspective - iif the rock is rubbish that we get, then it could be shown as sin. which is our fault. if you have a child, they dosomething naughty, majority of people would discipline them by punishing them - this could be the same thing? im not saying you're wrong,, and im not saying i'm right, im just saying that if its your fault in the first place, you'll be happy when its over.
    im aware i just made two different points, and they were pretty rubbissh, but ive been up for about 15 hours and i need some sleep.
    but the father thing is kinda the more relevant one

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Cariad

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    @metaphoricxeyes this probably isnt my place to say, but depending what religion you follow/kinda follow, if you believe in jesus those mistakes dont matter.
    im not in anyway saaying its what you should/do believe, i dont know you at all, but thats from a christian point. feel free to ignore me :)

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Erilet

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    i like that video :)
    i did watch it properly the second time you showed me it, after having just focused on the cute doggie the first time X3

    February 23rd, 2010

  • colleen

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    I disagree.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • metaphoricxeyes

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    @Cariad I have come to find that I don't really believe at all. None of it has really ever been proven to me. It's always just been what other people have said, based off of what seemed to be THEIR opinion. My eyes were opened to see that it was just nonsense, really.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Taggart

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    i like being an animal.
    im happy with that being my only tag.
    :)

    February 23rd, 2010

  • kisswithatear

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    Right so we're animals. Fine. I understand we're not superior to the other organisms on this planet but we do have something that differentiates us in a special way. We're cognitive. We ask the most simplest question which is "Why?"

    There is a wasp who lives in South Africa and as a female builds her nest her only objective is to find caterpillars for her 24 hour life. She finds a caterpillar, poisons it, stores it in a compartment in her nest along with an egg of her spawn. She will then imprison it in a paper compartment and the caterpillar will simply wait to be eaten by the emerging wasp baby. The mother wasps has no idea why she does this and her mother was dead before she knew she existed. She will continue to do this until she dies, even when there is not enough room in her nest, even when she begins to crush her babies within. She never asks why. If there is a caterpillar she will poison it, she will store it, she will do it all. But NEVER will she ask why.

    Does a dog ask why he likes a bone?
    Does a cat ask why it has shining eyes?

    Nope, they probably don't.

    And therefore as beings with cognitive thoughts we are something special, I don't believe in heaven, hell or God. But I believe this. I do believe we are something more. Although I'm not saying we're any better than that wasp, we're very good as destroying through excess and lack of thought.

    ... I dont know... this is just what I think.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • peppercorncrisp

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    OH MY GOODNESS!
    I LOVE debate about God tbh. It's not because I always have an answer, I clearly have not a lot of those...
    All of what you have argued is based on your own inductives leap (im not bringing jargon in for the sake of sounding like I know what I'm talking about, I just know you understand it)

    I know you would normally call yourself someone who encourages debate, but this is one of the most ignorant and rude things I've ever read. And no, it's not just 'it's just blunt or to the point' because frankly without the pathetic jibes, this would be a great start to an argument. By pathetic jibes, this 'you will fucking accept it if I have to start shoving fossils down your god-fearing throats' just makes me roll my eyes. You can accept evolution alongside the idea of God, and you know that. It's using language like that which immediately makes me lose respect for your ACTUAL argument.
    Some quick things to say.

    1) The design/teleological argument is an age long debate for the existence of God, but many Christians acknowledge it to be.. well.. pretty crap. I'm one of those people. I believe it's testament to what God makes and does, but is not proof for an unbeliever.

    2) As for us being superior, what are you TALKING about?! Okay, yes the cells are slightly different blah blah blah, but at the end of the day, animals do not have a moral conscience or have responsibility that humans do. Should we treat them well? Obviously, and its disgusting to think otherwise.

    3) It IS a matter of faith, and I defy any intelligent perosn to argue with this one. You have faith about your toaster and other things, based on past experience. You are talking about entirely different type of faith for God.

    The last paragraph is plain ignorance. Either that, or you have met some pretty nasty Christians, who tbh need to sort their lives out. But you still have a responsibility to sort out your generalisations.
    Don't go by the media's view of Christians, or most people in the spotlight! The only reason idiots like that are highlighted is because they're interesting to watch and read about.

    Oh, and I hope you take this as literally just standing up for my beliefs, because so far everyone agrees.
    If you don't agree with me (which most people on this thread won't) I'm sorry, but I have reasons. I AM NOT just some wishy-washy person who bellieves what they're told.

    When I have gone through life questioning, and base everything on faith (yes faith) I know my reasons. And I will stand up for them as long as I have to, and I know I have to overcome some thick Christians who DO believe everything to do it...

    If you are goign to post things like this, I know it's your opinion, but it becomes personal when you say the sort of stuff you have. And what's the point, when we can debate maturely about it? When people have fought for the atheist's right to debate from Christian oppression (fighting which i encourage) don't turn it back around.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Metaphoricxeyes Yes I do agree with your points. Quite a lot of religion is based on fear. Fear of doing the wrong thing to an overpowered egomaniac.
    @Cariad You are getting confused with the metaphor. I'm talking about things that are entirely 'acts of god'. And yes, there are lots of things classified as such. Mostly by insurance agencies.
    @Erilet Yes, yes, theres a dog.
    @Colleen ... Wanna expand on that a bit?
    @Taggart Nothing wrong with being an animal.
    @Kisswithatear I'd say you make a good point, but I answered this. We arent better evolved we are DIFFERENTLY evolved. A wasps brain is focused on breeding, and ours on problem solving. A dog can do whatever the hell it wants, as its simply got a different way of living. It fucks, it shits, it eats and thats pretty much what its happy with, minus various running around.
    Thinking 'why' doesnt make us special, unless every animal is each also special as they do different things so much better.
    @Peppercorncrisp Seriously. You lose respect for an arguement because I use MORE of the english language than you? Yes, swearing is part of the english language, and since I was actually trying to limit my swearing to where it was appropriate, kindly get off your high horse. If you dont swear, great, no one really thinks that highly of anyone that thinks its a bad thing though.
    Aside from the fact I was trying to cover all areas of religion. Mainly the parts where people are still creationists. If you arent, good, you have more of a brain, but its actually your responsibility as a vague member of that religion to try an actually make the rest of the loud mouthed idiots shut up.

    1. I dont fully understand this answer.
    2. Actually yes they do. Not all. But they do. And how do they not have the responsibilities we do? They breed, get food/get food for their offspring, find somewhere to live, a partner, learn how to survive in general. So our responsibilities are now more complex? So? Same basic principals, we just have time to for leisure too.
    3. Your faith is pointless and utterly unfounded. You having faith in god is literally like me having faith someone will cause a zombiepocolypse. I'm not kidding. It is exactly the same. It's never happened before, its probably not ever going to happen and theres no reason for it TO happen. Same as the existence of your god.

    The last paragraph is because of how stupidity picky you are about certain things. I dont mean you specifically, I mean religious people. I've read the bible and your god is... quite frankly sickening. You claim it is all powerful and all knowing yet when bad things occur it is people, and when good does, its god. It is often denied that god can ever do anything wrong or bad when so many things in the bible point towards it being the most cruel being in existence! The things it has done (and yes, I mean it, not people) and continues to do make the thought of worshipping or even believing in it plain revolting.
    I know you're a nice person, and this wasn't aimed at you or to be personal, because my point was you being good has never come from god. It came from you and those around you. Some people make out that being a christian means thats what made them really nice, and if they WERENT one, then they'd have been horrible.
    You've never needed god in any way and could do just fine without any of it.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • KC

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    =]
    im glad people are still out there, with similar beliefs to myself.
    it makes the world a little bit smaller.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @KC When I get angry I seem to get really intolerant of religion... Tis odd.
    And the internet has always made it smaller world :P

    February 23rd, 2010

  • colleen

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    No I'm not going to go into it further. I can respect your views even if you apparently can't respect mine.

    February 23rd, 2010

  • metaphoricxeyes

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    @Diceman Exactly. Therefore, I have decided to just live my life the way I want to without the worry of 'disappointing my father in the heavens'. Because in all honesty, we're ALL going to make mistakes. Big, small, it doesn't matter. I've gotten tired of having this whole thing pushed onto me to the point that I was afraid to say 'fuck' because I was afraid that God would punish me and not allow me to have a happy ending to my life.

    It's kind of ridiculous, in my opinion, that religions set so many 'rules'. I can understand some of them. But, really? To set some kind of rule to make it to where we can't figure out thing on our own as to WHY some things are considered bad, not just by people in religion, but to some people in general, then what the hell? That is what I don't like.

    It's all just ridiculous to me, now. I understand people having faith... I have faith in some things, but they aren't religous things. It's all people go off of, though. Faith. Faith in what they have been TOLD by another person. There is no proof.

    February 24th, 2010

  • GnarlyPants

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    Thanks.

    February 24th, 2010

  • absit_invidia

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    @Diceman I know the crusades were against other religions, but that’s the point. Religion creates communities, but many different communities, with conflicting beliefs and clashing beliefs. And hence, hostilities. Even if there was one universal religion, people would develop opposing ideas, and create a disagreement within the religion. Like that video showed the two churches. And then, even Buddhism and Islam have there own sects, which don’t really like each other.
    The video makes complete sense. I agree with the man when he says that the soul is just a prop to support mans… um, delusions of grandeur, and evolution has just led us different way from other organisms. We may be intellectually superior, in a way, and have thumbs and all that, but that doesn’t make us superior. Yes. But… when you say we’ve made and created what we have because we CAN, you have to imply the same reasoning to perspective. Sure, "A rose is a rose is a rose", and everything, but because we CAN look at the rose in different lights, and at a greater depth in some level, it inspires further creation. Just another aspect of how we’re different from the dog. Not because we’re smarter or better, just more perceptive?
    Perceptive, inventive, “bags of meat”, that is….
    And, um, thanks. :P

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Colleen I cannot respect the views of someone who has based at least part of their life in dedication to a book that not only have a lot of christians not even read (I'm hoping you aren't one) but has infact been proven wrong at every single turn.
    The apologists constantly find a way to make science fit into their skewed vision- "oh well maybe evolution was gods was of doing this", "maybe Noahs ark wasn't accurate", and so on. Constantly not realising that as your stories and entire REASON for believing in god crumbles that you have gone from simple faith to utter blind faith.
    If a science text book is proven wrong ONCE I no longer trust that it's words are accurate, so why would you continualy think that if you stood fast against us nasty atheists that you would suddenly find your book... correct somehow? That because of this your god might finally prove us all wrong?
    The fact that you have blind faith is the reason I cannot trust or respect your views.
    I am sorry, but you are a nice person and I don't know why you simply haven't even questioned why you need a god in the first place. It's just gullibility Colleen. Pure and simple. And the simple fact that you don't believe the absolute word of the bible means you pick and choose what to believe. If this were the word of god, how could any of it be false? You can't just CHANGE what the bible says to fit you. It says what it says and leaving anything out is to admit that it is (at least in part) false.
    @Metaphoricxeyes Some of the rules set in place were actually because of the conditions at the time. As in they were like laws that people simply forgot the reason for and simply decided to keep BECAUSE they didn't know why they were there.
    And thats kinda the problem too. I mean in the story of Adam and Eve, Eve eats from "the tree of knowledge" and gets kicked out. Yeah. Not too hard a metaphor for working out wtf is going on. To keep and audience unknowing and ignorant of the real world is how any cult or even gang work! Almost any group that try to keep their followers, religion or otherwise.
    And for some reason faith in something is enough. It's mean but I consider that to be kinda sad. It's childish. Like how I used to believe my dad knew everything. He doesn't. I need proof now because otherwise I'm made to look like a fool.
    @Tara_Isha In all fairness I can't blame religion for most battles. Not really. Also, Buddhism is non-violent and not a religion, only a belief system.
    Groups of any form cause friction. Someone doesn't like what someone else is saying and decides to hurt them. I mean WW1 was caused by the death of Franz Ferdinand, WW2 was caused by the rise of the German Nazi Party being racist and blaming the Jews for their economic depression and quite frankly I have NO bloody clue why Vietnam started...
    And yes, we aren't superior. I mean yes we do have superior intellect, but a shitton of animals have superior ways of building, killing or even reproducing.
    We are bags of meat and probably quite tastey ones too xD

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Cariad @Crispy @Npja @ODDBALL @Crimsong19 @Jeryes @GnarlyPants @Azrepheal @Lilylilylily @GdwnsnHo @Tara_Isha @Blueskies @Dario_oh @Metaphoricxeyes @Erilet @Colleen @Taggart @Kisswithatear @Peppercorncrisp @KC

    I did NOT write or even make this (if only) but this suitably applies to the debate. I apologise that it's so small and if it's unreadable please say so and I'll try and link to an online version, as this is editted to try and fit in the comments.

    February 24th, 2010

  • kisswithatear

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    fair enough.

    February 24th, 2010

  • freedomisafuckinglie

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    100% agree. This has been really bugging me lately.
    Its also hilarious whenever you actually knuckle down and question someone religious, they get really defensive and don't make much sense.
    People who have otherwise perfectly logic heads have been brainwashed that much since birth that they cant rid themselves of believing in the invisible man of which there is no proof.. its shocking.

    February 24th, 2010

  • GdwnsnHo

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    o.0, bit aggressive, but... has a few good arguements

    February 24th, 2010

  • Toriisfairawesome

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    - i probably shouldn't get involved in this... but i will anyway-

    I hate everyone who believed in fairies as a child.
    i will never accept them as people.
    i hate them. they are ignorant.
    *insert sarcastic tone*

    now, that's not entirely the same, but i don't see why you are completely against people with religious views? I mean, sure, go for your life, disagree, but there's no need to attack people based on what they believe in! And immediately deeming a person ignorant because of their views is... interesting....

    i understand where you're coming from with all of this, but i just can't see why we can't all accept each-others varying opinions and look at the other things we have in common and be friends?!?

    February 24th, 2010

  • crimsong19

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    Cool.

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @MCJC It's just so... pig-headed to continue believing in something that is continusly proven wrong again and again. Just admit you made a mistake when you have no leg to stand on anymore.
    @GdwnsnHo I was feeling really quite agressive. Admittedly not the best way to do it...
    @Toriisfairawesome "i will never accept them as people."... not entirely sure where that came from but I get your point with the rest.
    Heres a simple question. Someone tells you they believe in fairies. This person is also someone in power of something. This person is the figurehead of a group of people and he tells them that the fairies want them to do things because they talk to him (in scripture or dreams etc.).
    Do you A) Question their judgement on things because they are quite possibly mentally unbalanced or B) Just go "oh well, there's nothing wrong with it" or C) Call them a liar.
    I deam this person ignorant because against ALL facts they persist in believing that this mythical thing that no one can prove exists, is infact real and sometimes even speaks to them (though I'm hoping this is infact the minority).

    I dislike them on the same grounds I dislike racists. They have their unfounded opinions on subjects and make no sense, but still persist they are right with no facts to back them up.

    Incidentally I DO dislike people who believe in fairies. Not children, adults. Children will believe in anything they want, adults don't have the excuse.

    February 24th, 2010

  • absit_invidia

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    @Diceman ha... that's brilliant. :D And, it makes a fair point. Religion is proved wrong time and time again. But... the problem is that there will always be something we don't know, and that unknown will be attributed to god.
    Buddhism is a system of belief, sure, but it got divided nonetheless. Anddd... The Vietnam war was caused because of the usual American paranoia involving communism. But that's all digressing from your point. Which is, ultimately, pretty accurate.

    February 24th, 2010

  • Dario_oh

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    Still to harsh for my taste..
    But I will say this:
    "FUCK THE MAN IN THE SKY! WE HAVE TO FIND THAT CRAZY BASTARD BEFORE HE KILLS US ALL!" lmao

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Tara_Isha Why the fuck can no one just ADMIT that they dont know!? They MUST it be attributed to god?!
    If you don't know, look for the fecking answer! If you can't, wait for someone smarter to explain why something is like it is. I was confused as anything the first time I saw sheet lightning, but my dad explained it and then I realised it was nothing out of the ordinary.
    And thanks for the explaination on Vietnam. I really didn't know.
    @Dario_oh Ahaha, I do concur xD

    February 24th, 2010

  • absit_invidia

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    @Diceman lol... that's hardy an explanation.. :P The actual reason is way more complicated. Cold war times, you can imagine.
    But anyway... Ignorance is harder to swallow than believing in some (or many) superpower causing it. It's just how it is, I guess...? Can't do much apart from getting pissed. Or get THEM pissed, which is more fun, but eventually, more painful.

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Tara_Isha They just need something bigger than themselves to believe in.

    February 24th, 2010

  • peppercorncrisp

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    Argh annoyed at my computer which deleted a better repsonse yesterday, but meh. Try again.

    First of all, LOL. There's no high horse to get off from, I really couldn't care less if you swear, and don't think any worse of people who do. I'd prefer people to be passionate about what they believe than back down without anything, and if this means swearing.. so what?! Don't assume I'm judging.

    1) I am more than a 'vague' member of Christianity I'm afraid. I'm a big bad obsessively commited one. RAWR.

    2) 'make the rest of the loud mouthed idiots shut up' I've said it before and I'll say it again. I spend most of my time arguing with people of my own religion through ignorance and judgement. (things like homophobia, abortion etc) Christians often don't do themselves any favours.

    And to be fair, the loud mouths you talk about are giving an opinion. Say its creation (which I do not argue in favour of) and they're giving an opinion in exactly the same way as you. You say these things like people are fighting you. No, most of the country agrees that God is a load of crap.

    3) You're asking how they don't have the same responsibilities.. are you serious? Wars, society, global responsibility.. to name three massive things. No-one is arguing, creationist or evolutionist, that our DNA is pretty much the same as animals. But we are and have something different, and that's given by God. I know you don't agree, okay!

    4) It amazes me that you think you know me well enough to tell me what my faith is based on, which you've said is nothing, unfounded and pointless. You have no idea who I am, aside from a few photos with fairly mundane captions (I'll admit. I suck at captions.) You don't know who I am, what I stand for or why I stand for it. You don't know WHY i believe, what drives me to God or what I have to say about it. And it seems you don't care, and because this is the case, you have not a lot of right to tell me what or what my faith is not founded on.
    5) What are Christians stupidly picky about, wahhh?
    6) 'when bad things occur it's people' - theologically wrong, I don't believe that.
    7) Being a christian isn't what's made me nice. I realise I'm just one Christian sayign the opposite but meh. That point could be a really long one... but you may have stopped reading by now anyway.
    8) 'You've never needed god in any way and could do just fine without any of it.'

    Without being melodramatic, being purely factual, I wouldn't be alive now without 'it'.

    February 24th, 2010

  • metaphoricxeyes

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    @Diceman My eyes are now damaged from holding my laptop close to my face to read that little comic strip thing. :( Ha.

    But I agree. People DO just go off of what other people say because they offer something that sounds good. In all honesty, my eight year old self didn't really know that the people she saw on some weekdays and on Sunday mornings were actually wrong. They feed you these promises of going to heaven or something greater if you do good and when you do good, well, I never felt that 'feeling' that some people say you're supposed to get.

    And then they scare you, present you with the 'commandments' and that you're supposed to follow them, otherwise you could possibly lose your chance at eternal life. I do NOT understand this. Now that I am older and looking back on everything that I have been taught in my life makes NO SENSE at ALL. It's just a bunch of words thrown around by men dressed nicely.

    All in all, I just want to call it nonsense. That what is taught is nonsense. It makes no sense to me and I'm done with it all. I've gotten angry, recently, because the people I used to go to a 'church' with kept coming and trying to study the bible with me. Thankfully I never talked to them, because I told my mom and grandmother that I'd like for them to take care of it FOR me because I do have my dad's temper. And that's not a good thing.

    I probably would have screamed and yelled at them to leave me alone and to let me live my life in peace. And we live in a trailer park. I probably would cause problems by that, ha.

    But the promise of living forever used to sound nice to me. But now that I think about it, living FOREVER... wouldn't it get boring after awhile? Ridiculous stuff, really.

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Peppercorncrisp I apologise, I thought you were judging.
    I'm less... agitated now.
    1. You might be committed, but short of being a pope, or even really someone of high standing, you're still kinda on the bottom rungs of the religious ladder. I'm not saying no one will ever listen to you, or anything like that, just that they have no *reason* to listen to you. The Pope, or whatever religious leader is who they listen to.
    2. I don't know what side you're on, on the whole abortion issue, but that kinda continues a bit outside religion also, so we'll leave that for another day.
    It's good you try and change the bigots and various intollerants, they need to be stopped be they religious or otherwise (BNP).
    And that (the creation issue) is precisely my point! It's entirely wrong, and the reason I can say that so matter of factly is because of proof.
    It's as false as saying "my opinion is that 2+2=6". Their opinion matters absolute diddly because they are factually wrong!
    I realise of course that you don't believe creationism, but this was for their sake.
    3. Erm... I don't think you really understand this point fully. Wars is not a nessecity, and animals have them all the time. Only difference is we do it on a bigger scale and with weapons (other than sticks). Almost ALL animals societies. Ants have colonies, bees have hives. I mean you have communities of beavers or wolves have packs. Once again its entirely the same, just smaller. Global responsibility? The only responsibility is to NOT fuck it up. And by that I mean destroy everything on this planet, and the only reason we have that is because of our tech and ingenuity. Short of us literally blowing up this planet like a Death Star, this planet will simply wipe us and its various creatures out, have a... 3rd(?) ice age and start again (lots happen before that but lets not get side tracked).
    4. You have 3 possible reasons for being faithful. The bible (or religious teachings in general), a personal experience or simply being brought up with it. Any or all of them. It literally doesn't matter why you decided to believe in the flouting man in the 'heavens'. Seriously. It shouldn't even slightly matter. The simply fact you do is like believing in fairies or vampires and I just think you're sadly foolish for thinking some unfathomably powerful diety would be give us (any of us) its total and soul attention. It doesn't look after anything else despite creating an entire UNIVERSE! If it does then I think maybe the bible lied just a bit.
    5. You're right I didn't really explain that properly. Lets ignore it. I've forgotten its point.
    6. What do you believe then?
    7. THAT is precisely my point! Christianity DIDN'T make you nice and if you left Christianity you would still be nice and continue to do nice things because you're a nice person. People begin and continue to be nice people without any religious influence which simply shows that it does nothing that simple good parenting cant do. They also lose that debate.
    Why would I stop reading? It's a debate. Anyone who ever answers "too long, didnt read" earns nothing but my contempt. Well... more than religious person...
    8. I am very tempted at actually guess at what that is, but to save myself looking stupid, I'll simply ask you explain what you're on about.
    @Metaphoricxeyes Pssh they'll live :P
    Yeah I never felt anything either. All I felt was boredom. I was forced to go to church with school every day in my primary school (since it was literally next door). I would find flaws in their crap even at THAT age!
    In some religions defence some use those commandments forcefully and others less so, but they all mean the same. Do this or go writh in torment for eternity.

    It's always been nonesense. This continue studying of bibles kinda eludes me. I mean how can there not be one definative version? It's supposed to be the word of god!
    Also, its best to just ask them nicely to go away because you aren't interested. No need to scream at them really.

    Ever last life would bore the shit outa me too. I look forward to death and oblivion.

    February 24th, 2010

  • GnarlyPants

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    I like the comic strip. Made me feel proud to be a "Non-Believer".

    February 24th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @GnarlyPants Me too man ^_^

    February 25th, 2010

  • GnarlyPants

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    :D

    February 25th, 2010

  • sophiekit13

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    i really like when you write blurbs like this one!
    i agree with what you say most of the time(always agree with your thoughts on religion) and i like the way you say it..
    and the comic is great! XD

    February 25th, 2010

  • SeeKay

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    @Diceman You asserted earlier that 'most of us know what is in fact right and what we should do', and that 'it's good you try and change the bigots and various intolerants; they need to be stopped be they religious or otherwise (BNP)'.

    This is an argument rife with a priori moral subjectivism that just as much disregards moral relativism and fundamental rights to liberty just as any member of the BNP. Moreover, it is a view underpinned by an assumption that society is homogeneous and underpinned by an innate 'common sense'. Nothing could be further from the truth, as noted by myriad sociological analyses.

    Everyone is entitled to their own view on what counts as acceptable behaviour. This is an inalienable human right. So to thus dispute the subsequent entitlement of the BNP to exist is implicitly an action as guilty in principle of bigotry as any member of the party. Even if based on magnanimous Buddhist principles, to impose moral conformity upon another individual is an approach guilty of hostility, insensitivity, intolerance, an absence of understanding, an ignorance of alternative interests and human experiences, as well as an arrogance in believing that your own moral judgements are more ‘right’ or ‘good’ than others or reflect those of wider society (the aforementioned false hypothesis of moral homogeneity).

    In contrast to the imposition of moral values, what a more constructive approach is to evoke a more libertarian stance; one of open, objective dialogue and liberal education. In the words of the late John F. Kennedy: ‘the course of civilisation is a race between catastrophe and education’.

    (On a side note, and as a technical point, we are still in an ice age given that we still have ice caps at both hemispheres. Only once they have melted in their entirety can an ice age be defined as having ended.)

    February 25th, 2010

  • Trun0Jay

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    You're really into the whole 'atheism' gig aren't you?

    You do have other interests right? Perhaps an active life outside these entries where you're not a total control freak?

    Just saying...

    February 25th, 2010

  • SeeKay

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    @Diceman Following a read of the other comments, I'd say @peppercorncrisp's perspective is far more open and tolerant than your own. Food for thought.

    February 25th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Sophiekit13 Thanks kiddo, glad I could entertain.
    @SeeKay Damn. I conceed you are right about that. What I am saying is indeed intolerant, but I realise that.
    We don't all have a common acceptance of what is right and wrong, but we do have societies with accepted laws that are blind to such things as race... well... It's SUPPOSED to be. No justice system works perfectly. Yet.
    I guess what I should have said at the beginning (and I wonder why I didn't) is that, as nice as any of these people may be, I am simply tired of people who talk to the clearly non-existant running our schools, our politics and anything else of power. Not just because of their ignorance to accept simple fact (yes, fact) but because I quite frankly distrust their mental stability.
    I mean fuck, when *I* start calling people out on being possibly mentally unstable, that kinda means something. I mean Dylan Moran summed it up perfectly by presenting it like they were talking to their sock puppet.
    Do they think God actually talks to them? That it is infact ANYTHING but themselves doing what they do? Yes, some do. Not all. As you said, no one is the same and that'd be a silly thing to assume. But the fact they call it 'God', 'Allah' or even 'Vishnu' (depending on where) doing their work instead of Zues, Odin or Mephisto means they're not sectioned or at least given some odd glances every time they say it.
    I understand we all have the right and freedom to do technically whatever we want (without breaking the law), but lets face it, thats basically within the confines of our own home and barely anywhere else and religion, while utterly pointless and driven by superstition and dogma, can of course stay in the homes of whoever wants it.
    It can be taught in schools in RE too. I personnally would prefer that everyone simply abandonned it. Not because they had to but because they saw reason.

    Intollerance, prejudice and all the worlds ills will not stop because religion goes away even if I'm making out like it might, but it would be a good start.

    Amusingly I did notice that while you have your points with what you said, you infact didn't defend religion on the grounds of it being correct, just that they're allowed.

    (I would try and debate on the ice age thing too but the sources I find contradict each other without really explaining why. So I shan't)
    @Trun0Jay It does look like it, doesn't it. It seems I am a 'militant atheist'.
    Why yes, I have a company and quite an active social life if you have a read of my previous booths. I time-manage well so I can get all this done quite quickly. And yourself?

    February 25th, 2010

  • Trun0Jay

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    @Diceman Why so militant though? It doesn't really feel welcoming.

    February 25th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Trun0Jay Because I've had enough.
    That people cannot see that despite their reasons for holding onto their dogmatic faith have been picked away quite clean by science, that somehow trying to pretend its "the message" the religious text gives is somehow still important.
    No. If you want a book with a message, write a fictional novel on whatever you want, or better yet, make a kids show. Make fucking fortune cookies, they're often more remembered.

    What you DONT do is indoctrinate kids (of course not all do this, which is nice) into believing what you believe from an early age when they don't know better and especially reading to them things that are so rediculous that even the child themselves cant help but think wtf.
    Come on, Noah's ark? Moses and a talking bush thats on fire?! Seriously. I mean the bible is one of the most... graphic of any books I've ever known short of torture porn.
    Passion of the Christ for example is just... sickening. Religious parents would take kids to see that film! I can't honestly remember what rating they gave it, but it's clearly for adults only!

    I mean half of the stories have been made into childrens stories!
    I know some religious people keep to themselves and are very nice people, and thats great, but seriously. When your entire religious text has been ripped to shreds and can still be destroyed by childrens questions, you are an idiot for not twigging that something is wrong...
    There are no fairies, there are no vampires, there is no boogyman under the bed and there is no god.

    February 25th, 2010

  • Trun0Jay

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    @Diceman The entire subject is a pretty awful conversation piece though. Don't you agree?

    February 25th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Trun0Jay A lot of my friends tend to avoid it and absolutely ANYTHING to do it with. I'm just tired of the ignorance...

    February 25th, 2010

  • Trun0Jay

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    @Diceman So you don't want to be friends who'd rather converse about other subjects?

    February 25th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Trun0Jay I don't think that sentence made sense...
    To be quite honest, a lot of my friends are simply set on conversing about the few things they're interested and nothing more. At best I get a terse non-committed reply on the subject very briefly followed by how little they care.
    I do have preferences in topics too sometimes, but given the chance to vaguely learn something more, I'll go for it. I try to make friends with people who like to bring new and shiny things to my attention and can hold their own in a debate of either persons choosing.

    February 25th, 2010

  • Trun0Jay

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    @Diceman You breach outside of religion in discussions sometimes though, right?

    February 25th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Trun0Jay Regularly. Infact religion is one of my lesser talked on topics outside of dailybooth. I only really talk about it when something in particular really bugs me or when someone brings it up.
    Time travel and dimention hopping seem to be one of my more talked about topics really.

    February 25th, 2010

  • peppercorncrisp

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    The more and more you write things like believing in fairies etc, it reminds me you have a tremendous amount of faith yourself, to believe there definately is no God.
    Mostly based on your own inductive leaps.
    Just sayin.

    February 27th, 2010

  • mrjb3

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    in reply to your comments on joys dailybooth:

    @diceman clearly you're taking this personally. i have learnt some "god damn biology". and again, to call my beliefs childish and fairytalesis an insult to me, my god and my beliefs. you're clearly the one who needs to grow up here and learn to repect other people, @thethinkingphrase at least tried to do that once he understood how his comments could be misconstrued but you show no remorse and thats just childish and insulting. "any more questions on why your religion is stupid"? grow up you big child. resorting this argument to that is not going to help you get anywhere.

    the big bang is a theory, and yet, it is the leading theory.

    evolution is the concept of the growth of all beings from one source. right? everything came from some goo? where'd that goo come from? how did that single cell split up to create a being? and how did that being eat, and procreate?

    if this is as little insulting as possible you can be, then im not going to get into this discussion any more with you because you simply can't discuss it without insulting me and respecting my beliefs, or accepting that the big bang and the theory of evolution cannot be proven.

    microevolution can be proven, the change of a species within the boundaries of a species can be proven. cats have become leopards, cheetahs etc. those changes have scientific proof. but NEVER has there ever been any proof that something change between the boundaries of two species. that is a fact and you cannot deny that! i know my biology, and i know the arguments for evolution, i've read a lot about this subject. i dont claim to know it all, because i dont. maybe someone with a phd in evolutionary science could help a little more in this argument. but thats not either of us is it. show me your videos but i doubt they will say anything i havent heard before or present any newly found evidence which can back up the theory even more.

    there always was a god, nobody made god. thats what the bible says, thats what i believe. if the a theory needs fact to be proven, the big bang cannot be proven because we cant know what happened before it, what was there or how it happened.

    noahs ark?

    1. no. some scriptures say god led the animals to noah. other christian theories say that some species would have been able to reach a high point, perhaps led by god, or survival instinct. all we know is that the only humans who survived were noahs family. its obvious that birds could perhaps have survived on their own, as could all fish, amphibians etc. it would have been mammals that would have made the most of the ark.
    2.Noah was given instructions about how he was to build a big boat--450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. (Gen. 6:14-16). I am told that its dimensions were similar to today's oil tankers, making it practically impossible to overturn even in the worst storm at sea. Noah was told that the Ark would save a male and female pair of every kind of "unclean" animal and 7 each (or 7 pairs) of every "clean" animal. (Gen. 6:18-19).
    3. overboard. thats where id put it!
    4. the bible doesnt say anything about the fish, i would presume that fresh water fish died off, or perhaps there were pockets of fresh water at higher levels where some of these fish survived, but thats just a theory. the bible doesn't mention the fish so i cant answer that.
    5. the people who would have been left would have been cousins yes, but even today that is not illegal, frowned upon by society yeah, but not illegal.
    6. the rainbow wasn't a gift to say sorry i killed everyone. it was when god promised never to do such things again. the human race would be left to deal with this sort of sinful world by itself, and god would not interfere in such a way again. as for utopia or eden again? god had already banished the human race from eden. and the way he left them was with their free will. which is what he said he would not interfere with again. to create utopia god would have to remove that free will by removing sin, as humans are inheritantly and naturally sinful. would you rather we were all like robots living in gods perfect world where he controls us without our own knowledge or choice?
    7. it doesn't say in the bible that god didn't know this would happen. maybe he did, he just dreaded the day when he would have to do this. he also knew he would have to send his own son to die on earth. it says that in the old testament.
    8. i would assume god created it, since he could do that (from a christian perspective) perhaps it was a flood that shifted around the earth in a sort of tidal wave based on solar/lunar activity? thats just a theory. basically god did it cos he could.
    9.i dont understand what you mean by this.

    March 13th, 2010

  • Skythanil

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    I'll pick up here, save Joy some reading time.

    @Diceman

    Cheers Ben, 'ppreciate it.

    @mrjb3

    Those definitions you gave just proved my point. Does the definition of Agnostic say anything about belief, or just about knowledge?

    Yes there is such a thing as Agnostic Theism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism) - You're an agnostic theist. Any theist is an agnostic theist, if they claim otherwise then they are lying. You don't know if there is a God, but you choose to believe in one. Agnostic Theism, simple.

    I only use Wikipedia because it's a good grounding for basic information. If I linked you to a page chock-full of text then you're less likely to want to read it (and that's not just you, it's anybody).

    The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. I'll give you two links so it doesn't appear like I'm over-abusing Wikipedia:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    There is evidence for Macroevolution. If you REALLY feel so inclined, you can read the talk.origins page about it:
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

    Stating that Microevolution happens but Macroevolution does not makes no sense. The two things involve the same process. Macroevolution is just microevolution over a large time scale. Macroevolution is not different in any way to Microevolution, except for time. It's like saying "I accept that humans can walk 1 metre, but I cannot accept that humans can walk 1000 metres". They contain the same processes, one is just made up of lots of the other.

    March 13th, 2010

  • mrjb3

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    @thethinkingphase

    so would you agree that all atheists are agnostic atheists, and all religious people are agnostic theists?

    micro can happen without macro, they're not necassarily both true if the other is. micro can happen without macro, and thats what im saying, there is definitive evidence for micro but not macro. but i dont think the entire theory of evolution is true, i dont believe we all evolved from one thing, but i do believe and accept that things change as a result of their habitation, but not to the extent of species changing to become something completely different.

    This isnt like saying "I accept that humans can walk 1 metre, but I cannot accept that humans can walk 1000 metres". thats a completely different circumstance, and you cant use that here! micro evolution and macro evolution may be tied together if you're attempting to prove macro. micro must happen if macro is happening, but macro doesn't need to happen for micro to happen.

    like you said, there are aspects of the evolutionary theory which are fact, such as these micro changes, genetic mutations, survival of the fittest, etc. and im glad theres something that we can agree on there! but these aspects are things which dont affect my religious perspective, its the massive jumps between species and gaps in the evolutionary trend which scientists decide to fill in what they think happened, in order to show a full flow context, which irritates me. because micro happens doesn't mean "evolution is fact", because there are aspects of the theory which dont fit and dont have a full explanation. such as those jumps i referred to. but if you split it to micro and macro evolution, yes micro evolution is fact, however macro, although having evidence for (and against it), is not fact, its theory, and its this part of evolution which people seem to be talking about. people believe that because one is fact the other is, when its not the case.

    the truth of the story is micro is fact, macro is still theory, as there isn't definitive evidence to prove it. would you agree?

    there is written/historic/nonreligious evidence which proves that things happening in the bible are true. so they're fact. things like roman and jewish historians mentioning jesus, his works, preaching and resurrection. there are historians, scriptures and records from the day stating the same names, events etc. jesus did exist, but who he was and whether or not he was the messiah is the argument.

    without definitive scientific evidence (or first hand experience) to prove jesus was the messiah, that jesus was god, and that god exists, i guess you guys will never chose to believe in it. thats fair enough. maybe with my personal experience you would feel the same, maybe you'd need more scientific evidence. thats all faith. so if you chose not to believe Christianity thats fine. but this argument of @diceman 's where im an idiot and a child and believe fairytales is just wrong, childish and insulting.

    March 13th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Peppercorncrisp ... But... I don't believe in fairies O_o
    Sorry, but I don't really see how you could say that seeing as one of the main examples of people I would consider mentally unbalanced WOULD be people who believe fairies are real...

    March 14th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Mrjb3 Thank you for copying the thing here. Helpes everyone.
    I'm guessing you haven't really realised that I have no respect for no one that believes in ANY god, let alone the Christian one. ESPECIALLY the Christian one.

    I cannot answer all this right now, but I shall later when I'm not thuroughly pressed for time because your questions require a lot more effort than I have time to put into currently.

    March 14th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Mrjb3 Ok, now that I have time...
    No. I wasn't taking it personally, I was stating that if you'd learnt any decent amount of biology someone would have explained these things to you and you'd have thought "oh, that makes sense". Though yes, I DO call your beliefs childish because thats what they are. A security blanket that lets you believe that there is a point to life and that you are (even a little bit) special.
    I mean it's understandable. Everyone likes that feeling. But it's still a security blanket.
    And don't worry. I can destroy your arguement with simple facts. The insults are just because of how your utter ignorance of the real world and the science today makes my estimation of the world go down a notch, but lets get on with this.

    "The big bang is a theory, and yet, it is the leading theory." I'm sorry, did you have a better one? Other than "god did it" I mean. Or maybe you'd like to disprove this one. Seriously. By all means find a way that this theory is wrong so we can be closer to the correct one (if it's not this). Otherwise, shut up and accept you have no clue, exactly like everyone else without any real clue in quantum physics (me included!).

    Evolution: You hold onto the thought that this ISN'T fact like a safety net, and I genuinly don't understand why! Plenty of Christians are fine with the knowledge that evolution might have been HOW God created us and simply realise that the facts (of which there are thousands) all point towards the one outcome.
    As I've mentioned, I'm not even vaguely a biology major in any view, but what I am, is learned. This man here IS a teacher of... archaeology? Damn. I forget exactly what he is, but he does know exactly what he's talking about a considerable amount more than I ever could (considering he's been learning this almost more years than I've been ALIVE). This is a list of videos that he made on this topic. It's long, but then it unfortunately has to be to actually explain why these things work the way they do.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/aronra?blend=1&ob=4#p/c/126AFB53A6F002CC

    The only reason these are both called theories is because
    A) We cannot see what created the universe (yet).
    B) Because there are various minor sections about evolution that haven't been finished or occasionally turn out to be slightly wrong (one thing is actually decented slightly differently, etc.) and untill its utterly finished, calling it ALL fact would be foolhardy and simply false. Science can and does change constantly because if something turns out to be false, then we dismiss it and find the real answer, unlike you lot who stick with "god did it somehow".

    "But NEVER has there ever been any proof that something change between the boundaries of two species." Wait... are we talking about how something that is a bird suddenly gives birth to a lizard? Because evolution doesn't work like that. At all. I mean such things have occured in very very early evolution, but thats because everything was so close together that a 'leap' was a stones throw away. Lizards with feathers and various things, but since we're so much further down the line, the separation between us is huge. @Thethinkingphrase makes a very good point that believing in microevolution but not macroevolution is entirely pointless and also contradictory!

    You just argued both our points. "The bible says so" has been and never will be an arguement. Seriously. That is NOT proof. But you said that "there always was a god, nobody made god". Erm. There has to be a point where there was no god. An instigator. I mean what, god just appeared and went... "erm... I'm bored, lets create something"? Why can't the same be said for humans? I mean, whats wrong with everything just always having been there WITHOUT a god? He is just a pointless extra unnessecary option.

    1. Yes that is true, (saltwater) fish and amphibians would have been able to survive. But no, birds wouldn't have. They definately couldn't just fly for 40 days and 40 nights. They need to eat and sleep like everyone else, and considering literally everything was covered in water, there would be no where to perch or eat but Noahs ark. But my point still remains with freshwater fish. Also, BOTH of us forgot plants. There would need to be plants on there because everything would be waterlogged and drown (yes, plants drown).
    2. Right then. Lets look at this scientifically. I took the liberty of searching online and;
    "there are about 1,250,000 identified species of animal. This includes 1,190,200 invertebrates, among them 950,000 insects, 70,000 mollusks, 40,000 crustaceans, and 130,200 others. There are about 58,800 identified vertebrates, including 29,300 fish, 5,743 amphibians, 8,240 reptiles, 9,800 birds, and 5,416 mammals. As a comparison, almost 300,000 plant species are known." (ref: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-many-species-of-animal-are-there.htm)
    Hell, lets NOT even count the birds, insects and mollusks for now. That is 11,159 reptiles and mammals.
    Lets assume that the measurements you gave where correct, and find the area of it, as though it were a box (even though it would be curved because its a boat). That (unless I'm mistaken) makes 151,875 square feet of boat space. That sounds ok right?
    But the figure above is just separate species, there were more than just one of each. But here lies a problem. What would be called 'clean animals' and what wouldn't? There must be a list somewhere. But lets be kind and just times the lot by 2. Pretend none of the animals are clean (even though a fair percentage are).
    We get 22,318. Now 151,875 divided by 22,318 is 6.81 feet. So with the (unbelievably conservative) equation that's giving you every oppertunity, you only have a total of just under 7' to play with. That's not including birds, fresh water fish, the insects and various invertibrate and the extra clean animals that I simply left out. So simply put- WRONG.
    3. Fair answer. I would have to agree.
    4. "Pockets of fresh water at higher levels where some of these fish survived" O_o Dude... water doesn't do that. Either all the water (since it is all connected now) is fresh or is salt, and considering the seas are salt, well there you go. And that's only slighty better than your first thought of "i would presume that fresh water fish died off"! If they died, WHY are there any?! You might think to say "oh, because God brough them back after the flood". Then why would you need and ark in the first fucking place?!
    5. Actually yes. It is VERY illegal in most societies especially England! But I should clarify that it is BLOOD-relatives that're illegal. Step-brothers/sisters etc. arent.
    It's frowned upon for the simple fact that it causes somewhat weird and often detrimental genetic 'quirks'. Inbreeding is quite dangerous really.
    6. AH! NO! You fall short right there. (You're correct about the rainbow stuff though) With Eden he created us with a curiousity for knowledge and also a nature for sin. Free will has fuck all to do with that. He could have EASILY given us free will, but with no urge to sin what so ever. Seriously. That's not getting rid of free will, because you could still choose if you liked butter or margarine quite well.
    But why not Uetopia? I mean, he just killed literally everyone except for the only people he liked. Surely THEY deserved an Eden/equivalent? I mean they're the new Adam and Eve right there. Surely they wouldn't make the same mistakes?
    "would you rather we were all like robots living in gods perfect world where he controls us without our own knowledge or choice?" What? You mean like every other one of Gods creations from the angels to the animals? I don't suppose you've ever read Revalations have you? He has a continuous retinue of people singing his praises for ALL eternity, never stopping, never wavering. So yes. I think not having any knowledge of it would be great if I were to be controlled. Otherwise I simply view him as a sick, manipulative, utterly sociopathic and psychotic being that has nothing better to do than just fuck with us.
    8. Ok. That right there is stupid. He is all knowing and all powerful. He has said as much on many many occasions. WHY would he start something knowing full well it will turn monkey shit at every turn so he has to destroy city after city and then the entire world?! I mean for fuck sake, it was bad enough knowing Eve would take the apple from the tree of knowledge by PUTTING Satan (that was him as the snake right? Or am I wrong?) in the garden of Eden. Sure, PEOPLE might have been given free will, but the snake sure as shit didn't, so that was just God luring her in. Dick move? Yes it was.
    9. What I ment was, because I don't believe it happened (the flood I mean), if and when Noah came across anyone else in the world, they would have known he was talking bullshit. It seemed relivant in my head. Less so now.

    Also, to add to what you said to @Thethinkingphrase; Not all "atheists are agnostic atheists, and all religious people are agnostic theists" as you put it. It's a sliding scale in the same way that there isn't just 'good' and 'evil' but infact at least 9 'factions' you could equate to being in. You can be fully one, fully another or a mix of everything in between. I am a total atheist. I beleive in no god what so ever (until its proven), but others are less like this, same as there are christians who aren't as... zealous as you are.

    Also, my point was to be calling you an idiot and a child because I believe you are one when you dismiss such empirical evidence that is set out for evolution etc. which to me is as ludicrous and ignorant as someone saying that 2+2 does not equal 4. Facts are facts and proof all add up to the simple answer that you ARE wrong. Many Christians have excepted this as simply explaining how God went about things (including @Peppercorncrisp I believe).

    Sorry. Kinda long...

    March 15th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Mrjb3 I just checked. It wasn't the devil, only a talking snake (clearly more plausable).

    March 15th, 2010

  • theradioschizo

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    @mrjb3 Ok, I'm responding because while @diceman had some good points, I feel left some of your flawed assertions unchecked.

    "the big bang is a theory, and yet, it is the leading theory."

    So? You seem to be misconstruing the colloquial and scientific terms for the word theory. In science, it doesn't mean just an idea or explanation. Theories in science must be supported by all the evidence at hand and refuted by none of the evidence at hand. Germ THEORY of Disease is just a theory, but we all know that germs cause diseases. Same with the Theory of Gravity.

    Better explanation of what a scientific theory actually is:
    http://notjustatheory.com/

    "evolution is the concept of the growth of all beings from one source. right? everything came from some goo?"

    No, evolution is simply the change in allele frequencies of animals over time. The Theory of Evolution has documented the history of that allele change in animal species over time that has pointed to a common, single celled ancestor.

    "where'd that goo come from? how did that single cell split up to create a being? and how did that being eat, and procreate?"

    That's abiogenesis. There are a couple models that explain the emergence of single celled organisms out of organic matter in the prebiotic earth, but it's a study in it's infancy, so at the moment we only know what plausibly could have happened. Here's one of the models: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

    None of that really even matters as far as evolution is concerned. If we had no idea how the single celled organisms formed, that wouldn't negate the plethora of evidence showing all the animal lineages converging at a common ancestor. Any gap in knowledge does not automatically negate all the evidence we already do have.

    Consider this: If you were inspecting the scene of a murder and found the bloody footprint of a shoe Person X is known to own and find the fingerprints of Person X on the murder weapon left at the crime scene and find hair at the crime scene belonging to Person X, you would conclude that Person X was at the crime scene (and you may also conclude they're the murderer, but just focus on the fact that it's a confirmed fact that they were in the house where the murder occurred). You may not know if they drove there or took the bus or got a ride from someone. You man not know how they got there or what they did before or after they were there, but that doesn't mean that the evidence you have that they were indeed there is rendered moot.

    "but NEVER has there ever been any proof that something change between the boundaries of two species. that is a fact and you cannot deny that!"

    Can and will deny it. Speciation (what creationists call macroevolution) has been observed in plants and animals, both in laboratory settings and in the wild. I'll let a man with a PhD. on the subject explain it, though:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEGQu3cm3CE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne1GwkFmylY

    Speciation has been observed and documented and that is a FACT you cannot deny.

    "its the massive jumps between species and gaps in the evolutionary trend which scientists decide to fill in what they think happened, in order to show a full flow context, which irritates me."

    This.... just isn't true... at all. Also it shows a huge ignorance of how the scientific community works and how a scientific consensus is reached. You do realize that scientists are constantly trying to prove each other (and even themselves) wrong. Peer review is a cold hard bitch and if your experiments/explanations are flawed or based upon speculation rather than facts, then peer review will be there to slap that pseudoscience down. Any scientist who disproves evolution will be earning a Nobel Prize, yet it's stood the test of 150 years of peer reviewed research and has only gathered more and more evidence supporting it in that time.

    "there is written/historic/nonreligious evidence which proves that things happening in the bible are true. so they're fact. things like roman and jewish historians mentioning jesus, his works, preaching and resurrection. there are historians, scriptures and records from the day stating the same names, events etc. jesus did exist, but who he was and whether or not he was the messiah is the argument."

    There is absolutely no CONTEMPORARY(key word) documentation outside of the Bible of any Jeshua son of Joseph of Nazareth having ever lived in that region.

    I already know that you're probably talking about Flavius Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, Pliny the Younger, and others, but all these mentions of Jesus have flaws (discrepancies which point to Christian interpolations, which wasn't uncommon) and definitely are not proof of his existence, especially since none of those writings were made when Jesus actually lived. None of them were even written by people who allegedly saw Jesus. They're all secondhand accounts from decades after Jesus allegedly died.

    I'll give you an example: Flavius Josephus' mention of Jesus in the Testemonium Flavianum reads
    "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. (Antiquities 18: 63-64)"

    Remember this is supposedly written by a Jew who remained a devout Jew till the day he died. It's commonly thought to be the result of a Christian interpolation because there is no way that a devout Jew would call anyone "The Christ" since they believe that the messiah has yet to come.

    Tacitus' mention in his annals isn't proof of his existence either:
    "[Christians] derived their name and origin from Christ, who, in the reign of Tiberius, had suffered death by the sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilate" (Annals 15.44)

    For one, this obviously isn't a firsthand account, since Tacitus was born in 55CE. All this proves is that Christians believed this at the time. He could have learned the part about Pilate from two sources: Christians themselves or from Roman records. If it's the latter, then obviously it'd prove Jesus existed, but there's two pretty good reasons to think Tacitus is just repeating what Christians claimed about their beliefs. For one, he calls Pilate a procurator and Pilate was actually a prefect. If he were going by Roman record, he wouldn't have made that mistake. Also, he refers to Jesus by his title "Chrestus" (annointed one), which isn't actually his name (which was Jeshua, of course). Roman records wouldn't refer to Jesus by his Christian title. This means that Tacitus was most likely just repeating what Christians have said about Jesus.

    There are similar problems for the references made by Seutonius, Pliny the Younger, and Thallus, but this is already a ridiculously long comment. My point is, ALL the supposed proof of Jesus from ancient historians has discrepancies and flaws that point to either Christian interpolation of the text (again, not uncommon and well documented in other cases) or just a twisting of what the text actually implies.


    "maybe with my personal experience you would feel the same, maybe you'd need more scientific evidence. thats all faith."

    Maybe I've misunderstood, but it sounds like you just said that requiring evidence is faith... That makes absolutely no sense. Faith is belief without sufficient reason and requiring evidence is demanding a sufficient reason for a belief, making it the exact opposite of faith.

    March 15th, 2010

  • Skythanil

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    @theradioschizo

    My mind was just blown, kind sir.

    I was going to make a big comment here about the difference between faith and reasoning, but you summed it up perfectly.

    Hooah, soldier.

    March 15th, 2010

  • mrjb3

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    Like you @diceman, i dont have the time to respond to this amount right now! Im studying postgraduate architecture, so im quite busy, but just a few things while i have a minute.

    i wouldn't say im zealous by any means! there are lot more christian with very extreme views, and i dont have a problem with the big bang theory, or many aspects of the theory of evolution. as i mentioned on joys page, these dont disprove the bible or the theory of creation, and therefore dont compromise my personal religious beliefs in any way. as you mentioned, there are christians who accept the big bang theory and evolution as how God created the world we know.

    also, i think i've made a mistake in what i previously replied about faith and evidence. i meant was, what i believe is based on faith. obviously faith doesn't require scientific evidence!

    March 15th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Mrjb3 By all means, take your time when you have the available means to answer.

    The reason I call you zealous (although, yes you could be considerably more extreme) is because of either indoctrination or a simple wanting to not view science as anything more than fiction, and not the fact that it is.

    The problem I have always had with ANY faith based believe is that, that is all it is. There is no proof, you cannot measure it, you cannot debate it and you cannot quantify it. Faith for people seems to be ok. Blind faith however, certainly isn't.

    March 16th, 2010

  • mrjb3

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    @diceman just wondering.. is there any particular reason you'd be more inclined to dislike christianity? i think you said that you dislike christianity/christians most.

    March 16th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Mrjb3 For a number of reasons.
    First, your god disgusts me. It genuinly fills me with loathing because of what it's done. And I don't mean wars carried out in it's name, but acts IT has done in the bible alone!

    God is not some omnipotent good force; Isaiah 45:5-7
    "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."
    He created darkness and is PROUD of the fact, and not only that claims that he is in fact part darkness!

    One of the people whom he used as a voice -Moses- is guilty of first degree murder, theft, arson and genocide; Exodus 2:12 (King James Version)
    "And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand."

    Rapists are fine with god too; Deuteronomy 22:28
    "28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
    29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."
    Rapists get to keep the virgins they violate, and those victims must submit to his lusts forever. Otherwise rape isn't even considered a crime unless the girl belongs to another man.

    2 Samuel 13:10-16: “And Amnon said unto Tamar, Bring the meat into the chamber, that I may eat of thine hand. And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly. And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee. Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her. Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone. And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.”
    That one was incestual rape btw if you hadn’t noticed.

    Also incest is great for the bible: Genesis 19:30-38
    “And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.”

    Adultery is fine also; 1 Kings 11:3 (New International Version)
    "3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray."

    Paedophilia was promoted by Moses as well (and God did not say otherwise); Numbers 31:17-18 (King James Version)
    "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."


    These are just a few of the atrocities committed by a supposedly omnibenevolent god;

    Deuteronomy 20:13-14: “And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it unto thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: but the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoils thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.”

    Exodus 32:27-28: “And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.”

    1 Chronicles 13:9-10: “And when they came unto the threshing floor of Childon, Uzza put forth his hand to hold the ark, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzza, and he smote him, because he put his hand to the ark: and there he died before God.”
    Acting on reflex, Uzza puts up his hand to stop the ark from falling and being smashed all to hell. Having zero tolerance for anyone touching the ark (except a priest), God kills Uzza. This is how an all loving God thanks Uzza for keeping the ark from being destroyed.

    Exodus 11:10: “And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.”
    Notice here that God "hardens" Pharaoh's heart, thus rendering the Pharaoh incapable of complying with God's demands. This gives God an excuse to punish Pharaoh by murdering innocent babies and children. And so much for free will as well, with him fucking with the Pharaohs mind.

    Exodus 12:29: “And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the cattle.”
    I wonder why Pharaoh did not die. He himself was a firstborn.

    Joshua 11:20: “For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.”
    Yeah, because to hell with maybe not wanting to fight. God wasn’t having giving them the choice of free will either!

    1 Samuel 15:3: “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

    I hate your god with every fibre of my being and you sicken me for actually WORSHIPPING a being that will happily send us to hell to writhe in pain and agony because we didn’t do PRECISELY what he says, when he says it! I would equate it to a genocidal maniac, but he is so much worse.
    He is a sick, abusive father figure, who ‘hits’ you “because he loves you” and what do you do?! YOU FUCKING PRAISE HIM FOR IT AND CALL IT A TEST!
    You Christians sicken me and the fact you promote such a clearly biased, racist, sexist, sadistic, narcissistic, blood thirsty, unjust, unfair, genocidal, paedophilic, rape promoting, science hating incestual, deity that clearly cares less for us than the evil he himself created to punish us for a crime HE fucking set up!

    You know what the funny thing is? If your god was proven to be real. Even a little. I would do my utmost to find a way to get to it, kill it and destroy it from the face of the universe any way I can. Such a being doesn’t deserve to live and makes Lucifer look like a fucking saint, which, I might add is a creation of gods, whom he didn’t bother to destroy and the only reason he was cast down was because he wouldn’t bow down to your gods “newest and best creation” (us).

    Your god is one of the worst kinds of gods and it sickens me further that he has so many devout followers who still think he is some benevolent being. You are deluded and worse and I hate you as much as I would any follower of Gengis Khan, Hitler or Charles Manson.

    Well... that was a huge rant.

    March 17th, 2010

  • mrjb3

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    Have you got anything from the new testament? These are, as I'm sure you know, old testament references. The old testament God is the one which Jews worship. I don't mean he's a different God, although I kinda do. After Jesus, God made new covenants to his people, and the teachings of Jesus obviously influence modern day christianity, including changing some things which had originally been said by God. This doesnt make it a contradiction, but rather a change of the way the religion worked, i.e. from judaism to christianity. Updating things in a way. After Jesus, we see a new god, a new attitude if you know what i mean?

    "You Christians sicken me and the fact you promote such a clearly biased, racist, sexist, sadistic, narcissistic, blood thirsty, unjust, unfair, genocidal, paedophilic, rape promoting, science hating incestual, deity that clearly cares less for us than the evil he himself created to punish us for a crime HE fucking set up!"


    As for the references about people...

    God doesnt condone a lot of the stuff done by people in the old testament! There are instances where people are told by God to go to war etc, yea, but god doesnt say "go have incest", these are failings by sinful human beings. These are stories about people, not god so dont put the failings of sinful human beings upon god. and in reference to the incest, im pretty sure this was before god told people not to do that. but anyways, as i said before, the acts committed by people arent committed by god, they may be his followers but obviously that doesnt make them perfect.

    and... whens god hitting me? wheres the test?

    "You are deluded and worse and I hate you as much as I would any follower of Gengis Khan, Hitler or Charles Manson."

    Yea... i dont even know what to say to that. As I said before, this is a discussion, and your insulting is childish, immature and unnecessary. I dont have a problem with your beliefs, and i dont have a problem discussing all this with you, but if you're going to continue insulting me, let alone my religion and my god, im not going to even bother continuing with this argument. thats pushing it too far @diceman.

    March 17th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    Reply

    @Mrjb3 You're right. They are from the old testament. If you hadn't noticed, that IS still a rather large part of your bible. Infact it encompasses your origin, your entire reason for there BEING a new testament and has the 10 commandments to name but a few things.
    The thing is, you don't get to sweep it under the rug.
    Especially since a lot of the old testament is quoted when any Christian feels it applicable.

    I find it hilariously funny that you don't care about the fact that you worship a jewish zombie. And he was jewish, as I'm sure you know, which makes the whole "turning to christians, so we're now different" thing all the more rediculous!
    At best you're a radicle sect of Judaism.

    You do realise that just because God spoke fuck all in the new testament does NOT stop it being clearly biased, racist, sexist, sadistic, narcissistic, blood thirsty, unjust, unfair, genocidal, paedophilic, rape promoting, science hating incestual, deity. He has neither answered for his crimes and clearly doesn't even CARE about them.
    Jesus never refered to himself as God, and explicitely said he WASN'T God, and if you'd watched the AronRa videos I linked you'd know this. He said he was one with god and that we could ALL be one with God if we did as he did, and maybe perform even greater miricles than he.
    So no. What a man preached absolves God of nothing and you're just sidestepping the point. He is exactly the same God he was before but now he let his own prophet and 'son' die a horrible and painful death because he didn't bother to save him.

    Actually. God created evil and sin. He is quite responsible in the same way as me handing a child a knife.

    I'm talking about (although maybe not you personally) when people call what happens in life "a test of faith from god". That somehow (like Job) being punished for absolutely no reason to 'prove your faith' is a remotely good or even nice thing to do to your followers. And then to say that he does it because "he loves you and has a 'plan'" makes it sickening.

    I insult you as I would a follower of Mugabi or (the late) Saddam Hussain. You follow a genocidal being and there is no way you could possibly deny that. You deny (macro)evolution and somehow admit to there being microevolution. You claim there is an almighty force in the heavens, and that this force is somehow deserving of anyones worship, yet seem to gloss over the points I make, which are mostly devoid of insult. You can't even deny them because they're RIGHT THERE IN THE BIBLE, so what do you do? You say that that doesn't count because there's a new version.

    No. You don't get to do that. Just because someone got away with murder and never does it again does NOT mean they don't deserve serving time for their crime.
    I deal in facts, and I just told you (with references) a lot of the evil your god has done and that his followers have done (as per his order) and yet you simply retort with "well he hasn't done that lately."

    Just a quick question. What is your opinion on Dinosaurs, gays and masturbation? Just wondering.

    March 17th, 2010

  • Squalledprincess

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    @Diceman You can say all of this until you are blue in the face...but it will never change what I know to be true.

    You can insult me...you can insult my lord and savior, Jesus Christ...

    but that doesn't make him any less than everything to me.

    You can scream all your "facts" in my face....but you are human, and one that has sadly never experienced the joy you could have in God.

    As hateful as you can be...I still care about you very much...but it sincerely makes me sad. You've gone through a lot in your life...and I can understand how bitter you've become.

    Whether you want me to or not...I will be praying for you, Ben...and I'm not going to stop.

    I'm sure you will respond back with more...and this is no surprise...but I won't argue with you.

    Accept that not everyone in the world thinks the way you do...and be okay with that. Spewing anger and hatred never helped anyone.

    March 20th, 2010

  • Diceman

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    @Squalledprincess You miss the point.
    I can simply state facts for a good reason. We all use them.

    I mean, for you to say that (for example) Islam is infact not correct, and that yours is, you'd use evidence, wouldn't you? Maybe state that the bible speaks truth, or maybe that your experiences say that there is a god (despite the fact that you, Islam and Judaism all have the same god) because of whatever.
    But the fact that you believe in this particular religion (unless I'm wrong) is because of your experiences after being read the book etc.

    So for me to infact refute your book, refutes all you've felt. That is NOT to say that you never felt anything, but infact that you simply misinterpreted it. For example, coincidence. You miss being hit by a car by a fraction of an inch or you survive a risky surgery. Those are not (nor have they ever been) acts of god. They're acts of men as much as me cooking you a brownie just to make you smile.

    Just because something is lucky, doesn't mean there's a plan. I don't tell you you're wrong because it makes me feel better, or because I feel superior. I don't. I tell you them because I have volumes of facts to back up EVERY thing I state! All of them are above and I would love for you to refute every single one of them! If you could, I (and most others) would accept it. We bow to logic and reason. Not to silly stories that a child could see is wrong :/

    You want a moral compass? Read a book on law. Hell, read a kids book. But a book so heavily draped in such... attrocities as yours? I couldn't abide to even pretend that that is morally correct, and it makes me more sad that you actually defend it despite its many MANY sickening stories... And most aren't even metaphors :( It just makes me feel like... you think this is somehow ok to defend...

    March 20th, 2010

  • cheeto

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    Reply

    starting a religion debate on dailybooth? really? that's kinda low.
    also. christianity isn't a religion.
    and if evolution were true, why are we not still evolving? why can't i shoot lasers out of my eyes or fly?
    that's all i'm gonna say on that. and leave now. kthxbai.

    March 20th, 2010

  • mrjb3

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    Reply

    @cheeto "christianity isn't a religion" ?

    also... those comments are just gona get @diceman started at "the stupidity of some people". im guessing ur being sarcastic or something though! we are still "evolving", slight, little changes that happen, like humans are getting taller... but you cant see it because evolution happens at such a slow rate, changes take hundreds/thousands/millions of years. i dont know about the likelihood of lasers or wings for humans by 12999AD... but this then brings in the debate of micro/macro evolution. if we grow wings... then we become birds? when does the micro evolution change the classification of a species into another species? thats at everyone though, not you @cheeto!

    March 20th, 2010

  • cheeto

    #0

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    @mrjb3 christianity isn't a religion. i mean what i said. it's a relationship. thanks.

    March 20th, 2010

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